Unsprung Media

You must have missed the point (again) where ALL profits from any sales (cd/mp3/advertising on the site) are SPLIT EQUALLY between artist/investor/sellaband.

So if $1 million USD (from your artist #1) is profit from sales/advertising, then the split is:
ARTIST: $333,333.33
INVESTOR: $333,333.33
LABEL: $333,333.33

It really doesn't get any simpler than that.

I think you are asssuming on the old music business model where all profit is shoved into a pool of money and then spread equally between all the artists. You should do your research properly:

If Cubworld (a sellaband recording artist) nets a sales profit from cd's being sold all over Europe (in real stores AND online) and mp3's being sold all over the world (iTunes, Amazon etc) of $50,000 every 6 months (when the payments are done), then the payments are:
CUBWORLD: $16,666.66
INVESTORS: $16,666.66
LABEL: $16,666.66

If Mandyleigh Storm (my wife, another SAB recording artist) nets a sales profit of $500,000 then the split is:
MANDYLEIGH: $166,666.66
INVESTORS: $166,666.66
LABEL: $166,666.66

Every artists cd/mp3/licensing sales are seperate, for themselves and their investors. The only grey area may be the advertising revenue from sellaband.com.... I'm not sure how they keep that seperate from everyone.

Now, you say that the investors take a huge risk. The whole point of Sellaband's model is that they don't... their primary purpose was to get a great cd that they helped fund, for $10. $10 for a limited edition cd being posted to your door, which is from an artist you helped to produce the cd, and has YOUR name in the cd artwork, is pretty bloody good to me. $10 is nothing for a cd, even if you had nothing to do with it and it didn't mention you in the booklet etc.

Any money that is made from sales profits (of the regular cd's) and the share of ad revenue on sellaband.com is a BONUS.

But, some investors have looked beyond just receiving a limited edition cd for EVERY $10 they invest in the artists album. They think there is a good possibility of much more... and these are not stupid people, but reasonably wealthy and very clever business people.... owners of companies in some cases.... visionaries.

So, say they invest 100 ($1000) parts in an artist. That means they will get 100 limited edition cd's sent to them... or they could choose to have 50 sent to them and 50 sold on Sellaband, or Amazon, or in 'Free Music' Stores (not free music btw, but the biggest music retail chain in the Netherlands..... strange name I know). The choice is theirs. They can put them all up on ebay if they want... whichever. The basic point is that they will sell for more than $10, so if they sell 50 of their 100 cd's they already have their investment back.... and they STILL get their share of the 1/3rd profits from regular cd sales (not the limited edition) sold all over the world, and advertising revenue from Sellaband.com.

TO be clear on the cd (which you say is a dead format) thing.... limited edition cd's are sent with every $10 invested. Regular cd's are sold worldwide as well (where some of the profit comes from). Mp3's are sold online everywhere as well (from 50c each).

Sellaband have some great partnerships (The Orchard for digital distribution to iTunes etc), Rough Trade (Europe's biggest indie retail distributor), Proper (UK's biggest indie retail distributor), Amazon.co.uk (LOT's of cross-promotion), etc.... and more being formulated.

I really can't see why you don't like the idea (except you seem to have gotten your research wrong).... especially for artists. You really can't get fairer than Sellaband. The artists even get ownership of the masters after 12 months for gawds sake, and the publishing is 60% to the artist, so if it's licensed for a movie... great news! The total creative freedom of the artist, and all the great people they meet and friends they make... this is keeping music real.

It's early days yet so we'll see in a couple of years if it's as potentially good as I think. I'll keep you updated on the progress from Mandyleigh Storm's album ("Fire & Snow") after it is released in February. www.sellaband.com/mandyleigh/ btw :)

Sellaband DO invest alot of money....
- costs of the site and employees, and everything involved in running a company (just the bandwidth costs for hosting 18,000 mp3's (6000 artists with 3 mp3's available each) that people listen to would be enormous.
- cost of hiring promotional/marketing firms (there's a big one in America they hired recently... can't remember the name)
- costs of royalties on EVERY free mp3 downloaded (they have to pay the artists 8c I think, by European law).
- all the promotional costs they have invested in (showcase gigs in London (Gibson Guitar Studio) and Amsterdam (twice in Amsterdam... at the Paradiso)... The London one probably cost $50,000 itself, as they flew in all the bands from around the world, hired the venue, paid for hotels and drinks etc.

So please don't think it costs them nothing to create the label, sustain and promote it and the artists involved. The investors may have paid for the album to be produced and 5000 limited edition cd's, but it's the label who pay for all the regular edition cd's and their distribution/advertising.

Also, Sellaband have a small promtional budget of 2,500 Euro's ($4000??) which is non-recoupable. Just given to the artist out of their own pockets. It's for all the little things (like Mandyleigh just got a great photographer to take promo shots), for $350. There's also a recoupable 2,500 Euro's from a partner publisher of the label, if you wanted to use it.

I don't understand why you think it's so unfair if profits are split equally. Shouldn't the label get an equal share, as they have to spend alot of money out of their own pockets as well, which is a risk neither the artists OR the investors have to worry about. No-one's asking them to help pay for Sellaband's bandwidth costs.

Amazon don't do anything but set up a shop for people to sell things, and they get the biggest cut. Same thing for Ebay/Paypal. At least everything is equal with the profits at Sellaband, and they are actually doing their best to help artists CREATE and grow. Why is that so bad?

I`d be super-happy if I got to have a share of 1/3 profits ($1 million by your example), even after I got my LE CD's and sold a load of them which covered my initial outlay (and more).

Yes, it is a good idea. Yes, Sellaband stand to profit equally for being the initiator. And WHY NOT?? At the end of the day, it's the ARTIST who wins... they get to create an album with top producers and musicians, sell it worldwide, get 1/3 of the profits (and don't have to worry about the business costs which Sellaband do, which eats into their own profits), own the masters after 12 months, and get 60% of any publishing royalties (SAB get 30%, the producer get's 10%).

More importantly, is that this is a very valid music model for the future, as it lets the music lovers decide who records an album, lets the artist decide who to record that album with, and let's everyone share equally in the profits (while the label take most of the risk).

Hey Bruce, that's not fair that my comment to your update is down the bottom... you should have done a comment for your update, so it was next to my reply :)

i think this is the post spot on review of sellaband i have ever seen! spot, spot on.
This is exactly what it is. A smart 'new' model/spin to ols fashioned records label. Let 'believers' pay for the recordings, cause they/sellaband are the label now. Although, i don't know what they actually do afterwards..

the analysis in this article is wrong. Who cares if sellaband.com makes money. Youthink record labels don't rape their artists? You look at the earnings of artists like Brittany Spears, who has made a total of 200 million over the years, while her label has made around 450 million. Comparable Selaband offers a more fair potential for returns. The sellaband agreement offers revenues from web advertising sales, which upon the success of the website could be very lucrative. The sellaband publishing deal is fair by industry standards where profits are often split 50/50; sellaband offers 60/40 for artists. Unit sales, traditional model all goes to record company, Sellaband offers a percentage. It's for ten songs that might not ever be recorded, publicised, promoted otherwise. For artists it's great fun, great to network and an inspiration for creative people and the creative process. I think revenue sharing breakdown will evolve as more artists record and the believers begin to stake here claims. Many larger early adopters /investors are rolling over a lot of money already into the growing revenue stream. It think you have to be a real jerk to knock sellaband.com. The recent investment of 5 million by private equity could be a boon for the website profile. I saw a 30 second spot on CNBC about sellaband Feb 2008 and have been a part of it ever since.

I believe...no time for paranoid player haters.

@Jamie

"Many larger early adopters /investors are rolling over a lot of money already into the growing revenue stream."

Please post the list of these investors rolling over a lot of money on your next comment. Please describe what you mean by a lot of money.

Best of luck with Sellaband.

I am excited to be a part of Sellaband. My career has developed tramendously since I joined and my fans are excited to hear something new. The project is funded between me and my fans, I think that is beautiful. Otherwise it would be me investing all the author of the original post speaks of... and for who? For what audience? I have expanded and am now able to travel to other countries to perform. For me, as a musician, gaining fans and exposure is just as important, maybe moreso, than flipping a dropping american dollar. The American Market is saturated with nonsense, that unless one is born into, one can forget about. I have to completely disagree with the original post and this author, as I am living proof that Sellaband works for musicians and Believers (yes, I am a Believer in other musicians on the site too!). Power to the people, and that is what sellaband is about. ~Mysti Mayhem~

Mysti,

I am truly happy for you. I hope you don't believe that Sellaband is in business just to make the world a better place for artist such as yourself?

Sellaband is in business to make money (period). Their investors have invested in them to turn a profit (period). I am all for profits when a company is earning them legitimately. Sellaband is attempting to build a business by claiming that "everyone" profits (artists, believers, sellaband, etc.).

Sellaband has known about this article for a long time. Show me the list of believers that have profited, or artists that have generated a financial return on investment. They should have this list on the front of their website. They don't, because it does not exist.

For now, I stand by my assertion that the only participant that truly profits (as in money - which is what they are in business for) in this scheme is Sellaband. Every dollar invested generates a negative return on investment.

I am willing to be proven wrong.

There are other honest ways to help artist do exactly what you say you are doing through Sellaband. True power to the people comes from integrity, honesty and full disclosure.

Once again, I am happy that Sellaband has enabled you to spread your wings, and this is one form of "profit". However, it's not the form of profit Sellaband advertises. The form of profit that Sellaband lures people in on...is money.

Sellaband's website is covered with the phrase "earn money", it's not covered with the phrase "charitably donate".

A scheme is a scheme. It does not matter if it's done in $5 increments or $5,000 increments - it's still a scheme.

-Bruce

Based on its activities to date, it appears that Sellaband is essentially just a way of paying in advance for a $10 (£5 UK Pounds) CD that you might like. This may change if any of the Sellaband artists start to sell big volumes of their Sellaband-funded albums. Sadly, there has been no sign of this so far and no figures about profits made from investments in existing recording artists appear to be published on the Sellaband site. Based on my own modest 'investments' it is clear that, in the short term at least, the returns will be negligible. If someone wants to encourage an up-and-coming artist and give them $10 in advance for a copy of a yet-to-be-made CD then Sellaband is great. If someone is looking for a practical investment that would compete with traditional stocks and shares or savings accounts, then Sellaband is probably not the way to go.

Having said this, I would have to say that I don't see why some people appear to be so anti-Sellaband. The way that Sellaband works is clearly spelled out for artists and believers. Also, both artists and believers can withdraw from the arrangement at any time up until the $50K fund-raising target for an album is met. As this usually takes several weeks or months, there is plenty of time to reconsider.

This weekend, I contacted the CEO of Sellaband with these issues about their service:

Johan:

This is Uro from Canorous, an Electro/Folk/Pop social justice band based in Brooklyn NY USA and Budapest Hungary. I write and arrange all songs, play keyboards/programming sing lead and back-up.

We have landed a producer/engineer and a mixer that have worked with [confidential] and were founding members of the band [confidential].

We also have our own publishing company, copyrights to all my 75 new songs, and legal rep. from Greenberg Trauig in New York.

My "day job" is as an executive in the Mobile Entertainment segment.

While I'm impressed with your new music business model, and wish you success, I'm concerned about some of what I see as fatal flaws, an unsustainable business model due to near future artist backlash against Sellband. Perhaps you realize that your business model is still evolving, perhaps not.

Anyway, here are a list of issues:

1. 1/3 of all sales - This term is completely inappropriate, but especially on digital distribution outlets that are NOT a Sellaband website. We would only agree to 20% of revenue sold on a Sellaband site, not all 33% from all sites/brick and mortars.

2. 1/3 of all publishing - This is also inappropriate, since I have my own publishing company. We want 80% return using Sellaband, and I'm bringing in my own producer and manager--not yours.

3. Master Recording - I can't believe that I'm even discussing this with you. What are we Chuck Berry? Master recording is owned by us if we are raising the money. Period.

4. Leftover balace on $50k budget: We would want all of the leftover balance, if any.

5. Emails and mobiles of users - If we are to market our music, we must play live gigs, and therefore, we will need access to our entire sellaband email/mobile number lists. Period.

6. CD release - We don't want to release ANY hardcopy CD: we ONLY want a digital album (no individual tracks online) and mobile downloads released.

7. Free downloads - absolutely no free downloads whatsoever: streaming ok.

8. Widgets - I want to able to place widgets on my sellaband page from other social communities. A must.

If most of the terms are not agreed to, then, no, we are not interested and we'll not recommend SellaBand to other bands/artists. Taking 1/3 of everything is too high of a price to charge for something that should be sold for a low flat fee. Tunecore and Nimbit have already done this and this is the immediate future of music.

A flat fee would be much better and piss less artists off--like us. If you, are having trouble with the math - 50,000 artists paying a $100 annual fee for SellaBand services would generate $5,000,000 in gross ANNUAL revenue for SellaBand - without extracting a single percentage point from a single artist - IF that is how you did business - but that's not the case.

Let me know if you will agree to our terms, most of our terms, or revert to a flat fee model.

Yours sincerely,

Uro

He replied with this comment today:

Dear Uro,

Thank you for showing interest in SellaBand.
You may be right that there are still some flaws in our concept and that certain aspects need to be tweaked. However, the answer lies not in the points you raise and we see no reason to meet your demands. You can sign up to SellaBand and agree with the current T&C, or feel free to try your luck elsewhere.

Best regards,
Johan Vosmeijer
SellaBand

Then I replied back with this one:

Thanks very much for reply Johan.

Perhaps when your answers get circulated to all social networking band sites, forums and blogs and/or realize that you are not getting the quality of artists that you want will you then see a reason or two to pay attention to our requirements.

As it stands, your business model is unsustainable: it is basically a web 2.0 version of the old record label business in that the label controls artist and rights. But actually, you don't offer something that they used to: real old-fashioned Marketing!

And so, your business model, my friend, is history (along with your company) if you don't change. We can always set up a paypal account on our social networking band page to get donations, find top producers who are not tied to labels, etc, your business is not unique.

We understand that you have expenses (web servers, hosting, music industry professionals, etc.), but at the same time, we, as artists, we will not be extorted any more.

So, in closing, consider this: in the digital music business you need we, the Artist more than we will ever need you--you have no choice but to negotiate with us--either you will now, or you will soon enough, it's your choice.

Until your business model changes with the times, we will definitely pass on your offer, however, thank you.

Good luck.

Regards,

Uro

I definitely agree with all of the points that Uro raised in his comment. And I'm in shock over the terse response by Johan Vosmeijer. I will absolutely not ever sign my music up for this site. They are nothing but a bunch of thieves. Of course they don't want to negotiate their T&C. They're making money, so why should they care?

I'm reposting this on my blog, to help get the word out about these losers.

-Iceman

You have a point that SellaBand have the potential to do very well out of it - but is that so negative? good ideas deserve good returns

But does that make them bad??
They are providing a service that both artists and believers want...
Maybe it could be tweaked and more competitive
but the bottom line is it is open..

Let's look at another analogy
Sainsburies = Sellaband
Products sold = The Artists (i.e. one artist is Campbells soup and another artist is Monster Munch and so on)
Shoppers = Believers

Should we attack Sainsburies because they are the biggest gainers????

I expect other players to come in and offer competing but slightly different terms... things will get more competative and artists and believers will have more choice...

In the meantime SellaBand is 100% improvement on the traditional music industry...

For the record:
I manage Electric Eel Shock the latest artist to raise $50k on SellaBand…
Prior to signing up with SellaBand EES have released 3 albums through labels large and small (Roadrunner, Gearhead, Bitzcore etc)
They have toured 30 countries around the world and have done nearly 1000 gigs…

We also successfully raised money through our fans to record an album in the past…

SellaBand provide us a sustainable structure that we can not only raise money but we can also enjoy all the advantages of being an independent artisat - but with the help of a larger organisation who can put together deals to help us compete with artists on traditional labels. (We could not get the deal direct with Amazon that Sellaband have in place.)

I think what SellaBand take measures up very well to what they do to help artists and I am perfectly happy with the terms and conditions…

"We could not get the deal direct with Amazon that Sellaband have in place"

Have you ever heard of TuneCore? You have given up a lot to gain a few pennies on that Amazon deal..

You have also given up a lot to get something that you have successfully done in the past (your words), or could have done with a PayPal button.

I am not hearing or understanding the advantages here, and I am honestly trying.

Bob, I am not digging the analogy - artists are not cans of soup.

Tunecore maybe a good dela on paper - but I am not talking good deal percentage wise - I am talking about a good deal because the number of units they will sell.

The SellaBand / Amazon deal involves marketing... it will get SellaBand artists noticed at the point of purchase and sell CD's and downloads.

We managed to get Electric Eel Shoc featired on the homepage of iTunes Japan because someone there is a fan - this sold more downloads in one week than for the proceeding 3 months...
SellaBand has more chance of getting these deals for all their artists because they have more pull than an individual artist or small label...
As they make more money and grow - so they will have more strength to get more of these deals - and all artists sales will rise.

I think your article has a lot of interesting facts and figures - but analyses these in isolation of a raft of other factors.

Bruce Said: "I am digging the analogy - artists are not cans of soup..."
That was my point precisely - I don't think it is possible to analyse them as if they were and your numbers do not take into consideration many other factors...

SellaBand are providing a great service to artists - maybe they will need to become more competative for believers in time - we will see how this develops...

But as the manager of an artist who has reached 50k I am fully aware of the value we are getting from SellaBand - it includes:
- logistics - when we raised $20,000 from fans on our own in the past we were responsible for all manufacture, postage, customer service (i.e. dealing with those that didn't arrive.) This was a huge burden on our time and resources - so much so that other areas suffered. Do not underestimate how much work that is and how time consuming each enquiry is...
- More take up for existing fans - It was much easier to convince existing fans to believe through SellaBand - because they could see the company had a track record of doing this.
- Many new fans - which is quite remarkable really - even Marillion who's very successful self funded albums were the blueprint for this model would not claim to have found new fans whilst raising money.
- Distribution help - We released the last album ourselves, we have a network of distibutors - but one territory, after promising to take X'000 before printing, then changed their mind and halved the quantity they took. Our only option was to accept this or move to another distibutor - difficult to do a few weeks before the release date. We were left with extra stock - which thankfully sold elsewhere. SellaBand with 23 artists and counting are less likely to be treated in this way - and when they threaten to leave a distributor it has more weight.
- Deals that sell albums - With any deal you have to look beyond the figures and see how many units will a deal actually sell. As site that only takes 5% looks much better than one that takes 50% on paper - but if the latter site sells 5000 times as many then I know which I would prefer. And sites that take less often are not taking enough to market themselves.
- Expertise - The SellaBand HQ are very experienced people. I have already had many useful discussions with them about business related to Sellaband and not. and there are many ways that they have assisted us already.
- Community of like minded artists - we are already mixing with a number of artists from around the world and I am looking forward to the Sellaband gig in Amsterdam to meet more in person...

I may come backl and add to this list
Feel free to ask any more questions
But as you can see we are fully aware of what SellaBand is and we are happy...

Bruce Said "Bob, I am not digging the analogy - artists are not cans of soup."
Exactly - that is why I don't think they should be analyses like tins of soup!

Bob,

I have said this before and I will say it again. When Sellaband puts a list of believers that financially benefited from the relationship that was consummated through Sellaband, I will reconsider my position upon analysis of that list. Where's the list? Have 10% of the artists involved generated a financial ROI for believers?

Now, you are going to say - that's not why believers do it (to profit). However, that is the message that is baked into everything Sellaband says in their pitch. It's all over their site, it's even in their Google ads. So, it's not me that shouts out "RETURN ON INVESTMENT", it's them!

As far as I can see, nobody generates a genuine return on investment but Sellaband. Nobody! If you are cool with that, than I can't debate this with you.

Call it a donation, call it a helping hand, call it anything but a way to make money; that's bullshit. Where I come from, we call that false advertising, and I think the courts call it fraud.

As a manager, you know how hard it is to earn a profit? Why would you go along with telling fans they can participate in your upside when upside is SO difficult to create in this business.

At least when I buy a lottery ticket, I know the odds.

I truly hear you when YOU say it's better than the label system. Fine, but stop telling people it's a way to make money. It's not. Call it something else.

Please prove me wrong.

P.s.: Let me know when that Amazon deal kicks in. I want to see it for myself. Please send me a link (or post it here).

P.p.s: You can't tell me Sellaband has not read this thread. Can't they defend themselves? It seems logical that they would take the time to explain their position in an open debate. I mean, specifically address the ROI to believers pitch and the reality of the ROI situation. Bring it on, please. Please tell me Sellaband - how many believer have earned a profit, and why do you continue to advertise that believers can???

(Note: it's not a market timing, to-soon issue. Study the math above and learn why.)

I am off until Saturday. So, if you are continuing the debate, it may take me a bit to get to it..

Thanks for commenting on my site and taking the time to understand my position.

Cheers!

Just some additional information for you

1)I only know of 1 believer who is in the black with 1 artist. Nemesea is the artist and the believer in question has had her LE cd's sold looks like through 3rd party sales. 3rd party sales are through sites similar to Amazon.uk.

2)Amazon's deal with Sellaband includes investing $1,000 USD into every artist upon reaching 30k.

3)Sellaband does invest thier own money through Sellaband publishing. This is a non-recoupable 2,500 for promotions and a recoupable 2,500. SO the investment then is only 2,500.

4)I know of 1 artist who uses Sellaband more as an another way to interact with and maybe gain new fans. This artist has been below 100$ for over a year and having exchanged E-Mails with her I don't expect that to change. In this regard some of the tools availble from Sellaband can be used without even thinking of reching the 50k.

Now my opinion of the earn $$$ is that it is talked about too much I agree with that. However the believer is going into a form of limited partnership with the artist. Given good numbers that means 20% of these limited partnerships will bear fruit and the other 80% won't. Then again there is more to life then money. Hogdaddee went from being a believer to being a band manager and after talking with him in NM USA. I think he has a great chance of being great. That connection could not have happened without Sellaband. So I guess I left an opinion along with the information.

Bruce - hopefully we are getting to the place where you can see that the Artists are in a good position as well as Sellaband...

Now for the Believers:
Below is an excerpt from what I have told EES fans
I have made it very clear what level of sales we need to achieve break even and profit.,

10,000 to 14,000 units - I agree this is tough from a standing start. However EES have sold this many units in the past and I believe with the SellaBand deals in place can do it again. I believe that they can exceed this.

The interesting thing is that many believers reaction to these figures was that this does not mention the music. They would not be swayed by figures alone and their either are a fan of EES brand of hard part rock & roll or they aren't. I think that this goes to show that whilst there are some believers on SellaBand who chase returns there are also many others that follow their gut feeling.

Now what I think SellaBand requires is a much larger believer base. Currently the profile is mid 20's to 40 year old men... SellaBand need to connect with the 'kids' and I think that they need to do this by showing that they can be connected to up and coming artists. Feel a sense of ownership, not just of a limited edition CD but of the artist themselves. When SellaBand achieve this then we are going to see much closer to the 5000 believers per artist model and I think everyone will be happy - maybe even you?!

RETURN ON INVESTMENT on SELLABAND
Level of Limited Edition CD and Normal CD sales needed to be achieved for believers to break / turn a profit?

In this simplified model you can see that breakeven on Record sales through third party distributors alone would require in the region of 14,000 record sales:
(Based on believer return of $7.50 for a LECD and $2 for a normal CD…)

CD Units x Unit income Return
LECD 4,000 x $7.50 $30,000
NORMAL 10,000 x $2 $20,000
Total 14,000 $50,000

On top of this there is additional revenue to consider all of which will reduce the number of sales required to hit breakeven:
- LECD sales through SellaBand which earn in the region of $10 per CD
- Normal sales through Sellaband (I don’t have the believer return for this)
- Advertising Revenue – current recording artists enjoy up to 99c per part
- Downloads – current recording artists enjoy around 10c per part

Of course this is a simplified model and relies upon averaged data and assumptions – Please make your own fine tunings depending on your pessimistic or optimistic predictions…

Thanks guys.

I have gone back and reread my post, everyone's comments (including your latest), and my comments on Sellaband. Bob, I realize your into this. However, I am sticking to my position until some things change:

1) Sellaband removes or honestly explains what "making money" involves.
2) Sellaband publishes a list of believers that made money. This list would have to include the name of the artist, and the total aggregate return to all believers combined. (I understand privacy issues.)
3) I don't believe this is a business that should be extracting percentages from artists. Sellaband could be a superstar by switching over to a flat fee model.

Download the spreadsheet I created (link is above), no matter how you slice it, Sellaband is by far the biggest winner in this game. I have NO problem with a company generating huge profits. I do however, have a problem with a company that claims everyone else will profit also. This claim is core to Sellaband's presentation and proposition, and I find that to be a bunch of...bullshit.

Thanks again for taking the time. I do hope the best for all artists using Sellaband.

As far as I can see, nobody generates a genuine return on investment but Sellaband. Nobody! If you are cool with that, than I can't debate this with you.

SellABand does, bands do, believers do.
SellABand does as you saw, even if not as you saw (your math is completely wrong).
Bands do (take EES as an excelent example), because they invest a lot less, and profit the same or more than in the alternatives (and they tried several of them). Of course, you can say (in fact you did) that there are better alternatives for bands. Please tell me one, and I, as an artist, will thank you if it really is, or tell you why it isn't better than SAB for my musical project. You have also to take into account that each musical project is different. You have a comment from an artist that wants to do a digital-only release. SAB is surely not for him, but it also doesn't pretend to be. He's asking SAB to do something it doesn't aim to...
Believers do. Not all (as not all artists do), but if you don't, you can allways withdraw and move along. If you had made your homework (by, for instance, lurking on SAB forums) you would see that believers themselves argued and discussed (including with the SAB team) a lot, and decided - for themselves - that there are several kinds of believers. And almost every "believer profile" has a way of profitting. I can give you a nice example: I have all discography (including participations in compilations and stuff like that) of a band called Ashram. They released last month a limited edition CD of their debut album - that I already have. I bought it, because it gives me different packaging and one unreleased-elsewhere track. It cost me 14 Euro plus shipping. If it was a SAB LeCD (SellABand Limited Edition CD) it would cost me only $10 (shipping included). This is the most basic way and example of a believer profiting, but it isn't hard to guess from here lots of ways to make a profit here... Of course no one is telling you that you'll be rich for believing in a band. But you are having profit.

Yes, you're right on one thing: SAB allways wins. It is the bigger winner, specially because it wins even when others don't. But, for the best or the worst, it's the best deal I've seen so far for those bands wanting to release a CD with someone financing it. And yes, I've even seen indie labels doing more to bands and fans, but those labels wouldn't attract as many people as SAB, and those labels are pickier than SAB - where anyone can create an artist profile and get believers to fund their record.

I'm not here to fight "for" or "against" something, I'm here because I'm genuinely interested in knowing "what's up". So, if you still believe that there are better opportunities to bands than SAB, please speak them out, I would love to know something better than SAB. Oh, and "hypothetical services" don't count ;-)

Hey Mind Booster,

You say the Math is all wrong, but you give no alternative calculations, yet you readily admit that Sellaband is the biggest winner.

Here's your alternative. It's anything but Sellaband and companies that pretend that investors/believer can earn money (their words not mine) in this game.

Your talking apples versus oranges here. Other alternatives don't use deceptive messages to dupe fans into believing they will earn money from the digital music economy.

If you want better alternatives in the same category, start a lottery where the odds are 10,000,000 to 1; sell swampland in Florida; or rob a convenience store.

A bankrobber said to his father "Dad, you show me an easier way to make a living, and I will stop robbing banks..."